Altis Life Rules

[Spectral 1342]

 

Gentlemen, 

As you may or may not have seen some hotfixes hit the Rules, and I was pretty happy to see [SP] take up the new Bank Declaration. If you haven't seen the changes there in the Rules under Bank Rules, and City Limits has a map for Sydney.

This leads me to my next point. Once a situation has started, I feel like the forces deployed should be it. It shouldn't be a case of people logging on can join in any situations underway, and that doing so straddles a fine line. 

A sudden influx is unfair, and when it's players in TS/On Steam/on forums then it ties into using things outside the game world to impact favourably for your team. That's almost the definition of meta gaming, taking things your character should not know and having them affect your actions, logging on, or off, or heading somewhere.

So I wanted to invite discussion on this.

1) When a situation (Bank, Fed, Hostages, whatever) is underway, should it be a breaking of rules and RP to go to it?

2) What constitutes the start? Is it when you hit the Rob Teller? Is it when shots are fired?

Discuss below. Open forum, keep it polite and on topic. Interested in all opinions, Rebel, Cop, EMS, Help Desk, Cartel. 

-Spec 

[Zorgain 482]

If no combat has started I wouldnt have an issue if someone got kicked off for something random or cops jumping up and asking you fed or bank is getting robbed can you come help. My 2 cents worth cant type much on my phone

[That Lucky SOB 373]

in my opinion and probably a lot of the cops: the situation starts when the two sides engage, once the two sides are engaged with each other then any new comers should stay out of it.

[Zac 116]

In my opinion from the playing the server from both sides well.

The situation starts when either side engages with the other if the Robbers are on Bank or Fed its Government property so the cops do have the right to shoot first.

Then with the rebel point of view its a big grey area if they see the cops incoming but they haven't started the robbery can they shoot? In my opinion they should be able to shoot as they are scared for their life.

 

[Spectral 1342]

23 minutes ago, Zorgain said:

If no combat has started I wouldnt have an issue if someone got kicked off for something random or cops jumping up and asking you fed or bank is getting robbed can you come help. My 2 cents worth cant type much on my phone

Would you feel the same with your Rebel tags on do you think? Legit question, interested in everyone's POV before drafting the rule.

[Spectral 1342]

23 minutes ago, That Lucky SOB said:

in my opinion and probably a lot of the cops: the situation starts when the two sides engage, once the two sides are engaged with each other then any new comers should stay out of it.

So say, 8 Cops respond to Fed, and as your in chopper on way, the 7 Robber you saw on drone become 15 with people logging in and heading from houses to Fed, getting there before you. 

Is this fair? Is it meta they log on for Fed, or they start it without them in?

[Spectral 1342]

8 minutes ago, Zac said:

In my opinion from the playing the server from both sides well.

The situation starts when either side engages with the other if the Robbers are on Bank or Fed its Government property so the cops do have the right to shoot first.

Then with the rebel point of view its a big grey area if they see the cops incoming but they haven't started the robbery can they shoot? In my opinion they should be able to shoot as they are scared for their life.

 

Interesting. So pre shots fired, it's open field for reinforcements? 

What about the fact Rebel reinforcements by the letter of the rules have to spawn Rebel, Cops could spawn Airbase. Is that fair?

[Spectral 1342]

 In summary so far, Cops feel reinforcements is ok pre shots fired, and 2 of them are Ex Rebels.

So, keen to hear from more Civ/Rebel/Cartel/EMS. 

What does everyone think?

[CeeFar 585]

The problem is that if the bank is hit off with say, 2 prob constables and 4 pubs lots, does that mean another higher up can't get on to get them hunters/better weapons?

its little things like this that need to be considered as well. 

 

ALSO, fallen police officers processing offenders from bank. Is this NLR breaking ? 

 

 

[That Lucky SOB 373]

39 minutes ago, Spectral said:

So say, 8 Cops respond to Fed, and as your in chopper on way, the 7 Robber you saw on drone become 15 with people logging in and heading from houses to Fed, getting there before you. 

Is this fair? Is it meta they log on for Fed, or they start it without them in?

Another problem is you could have gangs watching which cops are on and choose to hit it with the bare minimum and only low ranks online. the cops need the opportunity, especially or Fed to call in reinforcements as we are having to react and we dont get a say on when the banks and feds go.

 

if this rule were changed to stop us getting more officers to respond before engagements begin, it'll disadvantage the APD to a game breaking level.

[ASAF 24]

Coming from my point of view (Pure Rebel):

When there's a minimum of 6 cops online there's normally very few rebel gangs with numbers that exceed the police, when there are 6 cops, it's either late night or early morning, both times of day affect both parties, so there is not a disadvantage to either side. The only way i can see a disadvantage is when a gang plans a fed early/late when theres the minimum police force and there are Gang members exceeding the police by a large amount.

 

Now when cops log on purely for the reason that bank and federal Reserve goes off, it is infact meta gaming, pure and simple, and we all know meta gaming is a rule that is not meant to be broken, which leads me to another point, When we go to loot cop guns we kill, they instantly respawn when  we walk up, they shouldn't be able to do this so quick, sometimes i think cops have less of a wait then civilians after they are killed (Normally we get 2 minutes or 25 seconds) while i rarely see police having to wait that 2 minutes which i think is unfair for us as half of our income is from police  firearms and other things such as attachments.

Which brings me to my next point:

I feel like when you die, your gun should STAY on the floor for at least 5 minutes so both parties have time to come and regain there lost firearms, Not to comeback (NLR) and get them, but for fellow officers and gang members to use again, i can tell mixed feelings for this will come up from the police as there guns are dirt cheap compared to us, but its my opinion.

[Leopard 7]

Dead straight line in the sand.

 

The second either the door is busted or the teller is hit the numbers are locked in.

 

Saying this, if cops need reinforcements they have to hold the rebels off the teller. Like wise for rebels, if you need reinforcements don't hit the teller.

 

In the case of fed I believe cops should be able to log on at any stage of the fed and assist as long as one cop is still alive to call them in. Rebels, rebels can not join in at all after the door is hit. If rebels aren't confident they have enough numbers why are they doing fed?

 

Note: A cop can not log off to free a slot for a cop that hasn't responded yet.

 

Another rule I feel needs addressing is people getting declared on declaring on doing bank or fed so they can shoot the robbers but avoid the 3rd party rule. I will post my opinion on that when I get time later on today.

[Gotenks 497]

Coming from EMS as we don't have much to do with this whole situation as such except reviving in some cases.

i think if rebels decide to rob bank when only pub slots on they should be allowed to grab a couple of the next higher ranking officers to help make it fair. But if there are already more than 6 cops on, they should not be able to log on and help including rebels/cartels can not log on just to help bank. It needs to be made fair in a way where gunpower and skill can vs gunpower and skill. 

As for fed, rebels/cops shouldn't be able to log on as soon as the teller is hit, once the teller is hit regardless if cops are there or not neither side should get extra reinforcements. It's your own choice as a rebel aswell to hit that teller before extra members jump on, if you want to be at a slight disadvantage then that's your problem. But the same deal with fed is trying to make it as fair as possible and seeing who is actually better with gunpower and skill. Fed Should not be robbed of less than 8 cops but a max of 12. Keep the max the same for rebels aswell. Same with cartels as soon as you hit responding to fed or bank, your members can't log on to help unless they are already in that process or in the team speak channel with you. But if someone has been kicked or logged off just as teller is being hit or during they can find a replacement for that person so it stays as fair as possible.
Not sure if any of this makes sense, not much experience on rebel and none on cop.

As for 3rd party like Leopard mentioned. I dont think any rebel gangs should be declaring on cops or the robbers even through a crack in the rules.
With the new declaring to do bank rule. As soon as that declaration is out NOONE CAN DECLARE ON THAT GANG. They are already in a declaration and a roleplay scenario. They are already in a declaration with cops and so forth. Only 1 cartel should be declaring on them with the reason responding to bank.
 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Gotenks

[Larry 129]

Ok here's my take coming from both rebel and cop going to cover a few different points.

 

Rebel Standpoint: Everytime we either hit off a bank just for some reason at least 2 of our members get kicked off and most of the time they cannot come back and that sucks however it isn't really fair when people come running up behind cops and end up catching them off guard and killing them all.

Conclusion: If someone has logged on before combat started you may join in however if you get kicked off and combat starts you cannot return.

 

Cop Standpoint: Lot's of gangs will try to rob bank with the minimum amount of people required which isn't fun for the cops but I get poked a lot on TeamSpeak telling my that there is a bank and they are going to lose, most of the time I try not to log-on because it is meta, however in certain situations it is necessary.

Conclusion: If a bank get's hit off all officers that login can respond however you can only message police that are in the police channels on TeamSpeak and if you are found of contacting officers through other means it will be classed as meta-gaming.

 

Practical Standpoint: As some of you might know I hate spending hours on end in helpdesk for little issues that come to no resolution and rules like this really only come into play when someone is mad because you lost the fight and it's a cheap way to get back at someone.

Conclusion: Introducing rules like this although when followed makes it more fun when followed it 99% of the time just get's used to get back at someone because you lost the fight.

 

Final conclusion: Allow rebels to log-on before combat has started but if a user if kicked off during combat the cannot return. As for cops they can join in on bank if they login at any point in time even if combat has started but can only message other cops if they are within the police channels on teamspeak.

[Spectral 1342]

 

Lots of well thought out, well written stuff, exactly what I am hoping to see. Let's keep it going.

@TrueBlue  / @denis

@TheMagician / @Porter

@Lono3107 / @ALI

@LickMyWhat??

@surey

 

More Cops weigh in the better, I am looking to set a standard that is fair and usable for all parties.

@vizzN @Sam I Am @sirgeneralj 

[Spectral 1342]

Summary 

1) Ok to attend if in channels pre gunfire

2) Feeling is like you should have to wait longer before releasing, your gear should be forfeited if your dead. Winning side should be able to have time to claim guns etc. 

3) If your kicked and it's in combat then no returning, no exceptions, if the situation is at a standoff or shots fired, or players on scene from your faction it has commenced

4) If you died no returning. Cop side no dealing with the captured, to them your dead till processed and jailed or released.

5) Cant contact outside of TS, or it is Meta

6) A huge influx ruins things from either side

[Aguilar de Nerha 87]

If only u guys did this when I did fed before. 

[Fish 174]

The rules for the bank and federal reserve need to be simple and easy to understand for players, that way when engagement occurs players can keep a cool head and make sure they have a clear mind set of the rules.

[CeeFar 585]

I liked the suggestion of having a MAX player count for both sides of fed.

 

12 Cop - 12 Rebel
This means that we might actually have surplus to still be patrolling in sydney/other cities.\

In the event that there's a FULL cop roster (It's happened a few times in the last 2 weeks) it would only take away half of the cop force.

 

Of course, naturally, helpdesk issues will arise. "The cops had 13 people!" "The rebels had 15!"

 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by nclem

[Spectral 1342]

@Fish

Easy to follow is the goal Fishy, just some tweaks that cut out any grey and remove the sense that it is stacked on either side. 

@nclem

This hangs around the ability of those on to pull gear and actually do it. I have watched 3 Banks in 4 days where Pub Slots and Cadets are not given anything, including one last night. Result? A flogging and 3 Cop vehicles lock picked and stolen. No drones up I could see by eye or in Zeus either. 

Looking for equality, and at some levels the delivery of this relies on people doing some work

Bank

Rebel

Pro - get to set the time, get to setup first, get to dictate the kickoff, often outgun the Cops, multiple externals, may have explosives

Con - travel time, gear cost, jail, outnumbered, risk vs reward 

Cop 

Pro - close travel under 60 seconds, get to use drones, air assets in play, can use Cartel to backup/boost numbers

Con - outgunned, metagamed against/trolled by Civ in back roads, have to respond on no notice, have different levels of experienced officers on. 

Feds more in depth, but you get what I mean, not looking to penalise either side, just, clarity. 

Other rules I want to look at is VDM, the hard definition pulling people out and flipped Cars, increasing the scope of it. Servers grown a lot, got to adapt. 

[CeeFar 585]

@Spectral

 

The chances of us having air assets, while I'll admit, has increased, isn't always the highest.

 

90% of the time the people we go up against at bank have navids and just shoot down our heli we are using to do recon.

We are SEVERELY outgunned at most banks. 

[Spectral 1342]

12 minutes ago, nclem said:

@Spectral

 

The chances of us having air assets, while I'll admit, has increased, isn't always the highest.

 

90% of the time the people we go up against at bank have navids and just shoot down our heli we are using to do recon.

We are SEVERELY outgunned at most banks. 

With 17 guys on SRT Roster now an increase of 8, all have access to everything in the game (or should). 

If Helicopters get shot down that's pilot error, close overhead scouting of the bank is a drones job, helicopter should be looking for vehicles at known snipers spots, then if found, tracking the snipers from the vehicles. When I see Helicopters sitting over bank or landing on it I just shake my head.

The actual Bank is enclosed by cover if they use it, back street, demolished buildings, shooting from Church, LoS exists from Favela to Bank. 

All of this is tactics though, not manpower which is incidental to guns, if they hold high ground and communicate either side will win 8/10 regardless of firepower. 

[CeeFar 585]

1 minute ago, Spectral said:

With 17 guys on SRT Roster now an increase of 8, all have access to everything in the game (or should). 

If Helicopters get shot down that's pilot error, close overhead scouting of the bank is a drones job, helicopter should be looking for vehicles at known snipers spots, then if found, tracking the snipers from the vehicles. When I see Helicopters sitting over bank or landing on it I just shake my head.

The actual Bank is enclosed by cover if they use it, back street, demolished buildings, shooting from Church, LoS exists from Favela to Bank. 

All of this is tactics though, not manpower which is incidental to guns, if they hold high ground and communicate either side will win 8/10 regardless of firepower. 

There are severe punishments for having gear you are unable to purchase.

 

And apparently we are no longer allowed to give out gear for Bank/Fed.

 

Don't ask me who/what/when/where/why/how but apparently that's the case. 

[Leopard 7]

@Spectral

 

Personally not a fan of having to be in the channel, potentially difficult to enforce, going afk in channels so you can attend etc. 

 

If you want to be apart of a bank or fed you have to be online. If not I see you as out of play, cop sits in channel until they hear there is pre-bank shots and log on, seems like more meta then getting "called" on duty. 

 

In regards to what I mentioned earlier about gangs declaring on the robbers before it technically gets hit should be against rules, possibly by making bank or fed areas you can not declare on, or even if you are in a dec and that faction starts bank or fed you must back off, in saying this you can't run to bank or fed and hit it because you want out of a dec. 

 

@Yuri > Thoughts on this whole discussion?

Edited October 5, 2016 by Leopard

[Zorgain 482]

10 hours ago, Spectral said:

Would you feel the same with your Rebel tags on do you think? Legit question, interested in everyone's POV before drafting the rule.

COP: Its both really the same for bank you dont get much people joining in because it is in such a weird place but for fed you'll always see Anywhere from Superintendents to Constables but a lot of people rob the bank to get anywhere from like 800k-1.3mil when there is 2 Cadets and 4 public slots of corse Sergeants and SRT are gonna jump on and respond its just not ideal for Taser Rifles and Stings to respond in SUVs and get rekted.

REBEL: Hard to respond to both if the cops are there anyway cops have a lot of externals and watchers they it just means police have to watch their back half the time but thats just like any gun fight. Its not really a MASSIVE increase for rebels to add one or two too the gun fight and as for cops its more so needed to grab hunters drones SRT gear.

Rule should stay the same, It's Simple And Easy.