CAS Jet Overhaul

[Irfan 6]

I myself love the CAS jets and i tottaly agree with the current rules and respect them however i had an idea of how having one single multi-pupose fighter would be a great option instead of having both the CAS jet and AA jet. Having one single fighter thats able to play both roles is brilliant. The perfect jet for this would be the knewly inttoduced F 181 Black Wasp. With the way radar works and how less effective ATGM are now, limiting them to an extrmely low range due to terrain it allows the abilty to use the ATGM as a quick lethal and highly accurate drop weapon however exposing your jet to heavy AA fire due to the close proximity required now.  As the Wasp carries both AA and CAS capabilties it makes it alot more suitable for the current enviroment, as the A - 164 Wipeout is a bit too OP with how insanely accurate the cannon is and the amount of bombs it carries. The Wasp propses are more balanced role as a multi role fighter. As mentioned before ATGM would need be unlocked however to maximise  the Wasps effectiveness since they is only one jet, and how ATGM are alot less over powered than before. Also this proposol would mean this Jet requires alot more co ordiantion and frees up a pilot slot to do transport as most of the time the CAS jet currently takes out the enemy AI jet anyways. It will also make both pilots and infantry realise how much more important having the air supperioty is in the sky and how much more valuable this asset truly is.

 

Edit: Could utilse the carrier and spawn the F/A 181 Black Wasp II on that which will be even cooler

Well thats my thoughts at least and i reckon this would be a great implementation. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Irfan

[BridTheAtl 116]

I like the idea but what if you get shot down before you're able to successfully destroy the enemy jets/ tigs? or it's a defend mission and we are left with no jets since the CAS jet only spawns after the AO is completed?

[Blue Eagle [+1 CREW] 181]

30mm>20mm

[Tracuer 92]

my one problem with that is having a constant Black wasp as the ONLY jet means we can't do things like what is at the bottom of your own post, also the people who don't have the jets DLC can't fly the black wasp.

On your talk about realising the importance of air superiority, I feel the CAS jets give that feeling when they are unable to see the enemy jets as effectively without the active air-air radar, which puts them at a disadvantage compared to the air superiority dedicated fighters like the new ones.

I don't know about the use of the ATGMs still, I feel you can be just as effective if not more so with bombs and a friendly lasing targets. Yes I know that's not always happening, but at least that limits the temptation to just 'accidentally fire a missile.' And as you said yourself, the wipeout has a good accurate cannon that can be used just as effectively (with practice) as the ATGMs.

Overall I feel a good balance is what we have at current, although @Fitz it might be an idea to have the 2 dedicated CAS jets do the actual CAS with the newer jets cycling through the AA. just my opinion.

[Irfan 6]

Fair points i guess. but thats what makes it alot more important and you wont have some person  that doesnt know what his doing and crashing on take off because he/she will realise the amount of preassure that is constantly on you and required. About your point Trace i see what ur trying to say but its super easy to overcome that by turning radar on for a split second and back off again, also you can see the jets on map and when they get spawned in due to the dialogue box. About the ATGM i casn understand that but due to the dynamic loadout you would be able to change to bombs anyways if ATGMs are still underwhelming to use due to their fire and forgot nature (even though they take a long time to lock on anyways since how fast you are travelling).

 

Thats just an idea atleast 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Irfan

[Matsozetex 89]

Remember how the US military started comparing the F-35 to the A-10? This is the same problem, instead of it being the price of the jet, it is the price of not having that dedicated CAS in the AO (And the price for the DLC).

As Tracey has mentioned the A-10 and the Neo serve perfectly as the current CAS. 

The A-10 as a plane is not so powerful as it seems to be, its cannon is effective at 2.5km (Well within AA missile range) and that paired with the relatively poor mobility when compared to the Neo can be a recipe for disaster. Also the bombs promote communication with ground troops, which is always nice, the rockets on the A-10 are also quite poor due to limited ammo capacity.

The Neo acts as a counter balance to the A-10, where the Wipeout fails, it succeeds. The Neo's gun is not the best, it can take out light vehicles but no tanks, this is paired with a similar range to the A-10. The speed and acceleration is what make it good as a boom and zoom jet as it can provide great spouts of rockets (20 of each time) in a run and get the f*** out of there quickly, and finally its bombs are superior (Not many people notice this), the bombs are more powerful than the ones on the A-10, in all situations a target hit by a bomb will instant blow up if that bomb is dropped by a Neo.

From my experience of toying around with the Dev build, I am happy to say that the Wasp quite good in some respects, with it having larger focus on AA than CAS than its CSAT (And AAF) counter parts, making it ideal for the assignment of a AA jet.....However the atgms that is featured on the jet need to be disabled/stay disabled, for the same reason they were disabled on the Xian, there is no risk with using ATGMs. Similar to the usage of the Xian, people in this jet will linger outside the AO, taking potshots at enemy vehicles, in this circumstance, there is no coordination between ground troops (Lazing and calling lazes out) or risk (Going into range of AO to ground attack).

Another pointer for the Wasp not having its Atgms enabled is giving the Attack helicopters (Those with DAGRs and ATGMs) the slight powerful feel that they did, when Apex was released is was only a small amount of time before the Xian had the atgms patched out, this is because helicopters, especially the Kajman had balancing factors associated with the Atgms. Kajmans have to deal with poor maneuverability at high speeds, a poor power to weight ratio and being quite the target for AA rockets, but the ATGMs made it worth flying "the grave for two pilots".

Just to summarize, the wasp is a good addition to Arma 3, it was a long time coming for NATO to have a true AA fighter (Shooting 30mm tank busting rounds into an AA jet felt disgusting), but personally I believe that the server's meta with certain weapons on certain vehicles being disabled allows each vehicle to remain unique and become excellent when put in the right circumstances. Making the Wasp the dedicated CAS and AA jet would eliminate the enjoyment of using the slow, tank busting A-10 or the booming and zooming Neo, even the Atgms ruin the niche role that the Orca, blackfoot or Kajman play. Also, as mentioned by @Blue Eagle [+1 CREW] a 20mm cannon inst a sufficient caliber to be performing gun runs on Tigs, Main Battle tanks or other hard targets successfully.

Simply put the Wasp should remain or be an AA jet, have its atgms removed and is not sufficently armed to replace the Neo or the A-10. This also allows people who don't have the DLC to be able to still use jets, rather than being hit with a paywall on an integral part of the server, one which there are dedicated teamspeak channels to wait for a turn.

[M9' 169]

It's good to see some different ideas being shared @Irfan, and although I do see where you are coming from, I do think the variation in the jets adds more to the long term gameplay experience than having just one jet to rule them all. I haven't found anything on I&A as annoying as having a fully prepared CAS jet up in the air, and being restricted by a force on the ground that seemingly doesn't care for the constant 'CAS is up' messages. There are some times where all the CAS jet can do is look pretty and this can be a pain, however, that is the price I feel is necessary for using a pilot slot that could otherwise be used to transport infantry. Keep in mind also that I&A is not a DLC owners club, and that many of the people that want to come on and add a bit to the experience do not have the jets DLC, if any of the DLC at all.

I love the idea of implementing the new content more into I&A, but it's important to balance the experience of all who come and partake.

[CeeFar 585]

19 hours ago, MNine said:

It's good to see some different ideas being shared @Irfan, and although I do see where you are coming from, I do think the variation in the jets adds more to the long term gameplay experience than having just one jet to rule them all. I haven't found anything on I&A as annoying as having a fully prepared CAS jet up in the air, and being restricted by a force on the ground that seemingly doesn't care for the constant 'CAS is up' messages. There are some times where all the CAS jet can do is look pretty and this can be a pain, however, that is the price I feel is necessary for using a pilot slot that could otherwise be used to transport infantry. Keep in mind also that I&A is not a DLC owners club, and that many of the people that want to come on and add a bit to the experience do not have the jets DLC, if any of the DLC at all.

I love the idea of implementing the new content more into I&A, but it's important to balance the experience of all who come and partake.

MNine one thing I've suggested a few times to fix the issue of CAS pilots who do and don't have the DLC is a little stand at the CAS hangar, usable once per AO, go up to it. Scrollwheel, and select either "DLC or Non DLC". it will then randomly pick one of the DLC jets or default jets. 

[Nova 1779]

1 hour ago, nclem said:

MNine one thing I've suggested a few times to fix the issue of CAS pilots who do and don't have the DLC is a little stand at the CAS hangar, usable once per AO, go up to it. Scrollwheel, and select either "DLC or Non DLC". it will then randomly pick one of the DLC jets or default jets. 

not an issue since all the DLC jets are air superiority jets not cas so they wouldnt spawn in the cas spawn

[BridTheAtl 116]

41 minutes ago, InfamousNova said:

not an issue since all the DLC jets are air superiority jets not cas so they wouldnt spawn in the cas spawn

The shikra spawns as both AA and CAS 

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by BridTheAtl

[Nova 1779]

2 hours ago, BridTheAtl said:

The shikra spawns as both AA and CAS 

 

they still dont spawn on the cas spawn so its not an issue

[Tungsten 69]

what you need to realize about the Black wasp as CAS or as a Multirole is that your sacrificing quite a lot of things when compared to a Wipeout or Neo:

Survivability: the Wipeout be crippled and it can still fly, and both the Neo and Wipeout can take more damage from Triple A compared to the AA jets (double the flares means nothing if you have a AA missile come at you from in-front of you, which is very likely to happen when doing CAS)

Flexibility: all the Wasp has for CAS is Macers or GBUs and nothing else, meaning you cant effectively and efficiently take out lighter targets like IFVs or MRAPs, your 20mm HE is better suited for dogfights and its a waste to use bombs or Heavy ATGMs like Macers on light armor, loading Bombs or Macers also reduces your AA loadout quite noticably, where as the Wipeout and Neo have 30mm cannons firing HEAT shells, Rockets , ASRAAMs and Bombs, which basically lets you engage just about anything the infantry will encounter

Reliability: The Wipeout may be slow, but that is not a bad thing, because it has a much lower stall speed and can land on around 100m of clear ground (you can touch down just after the christmas trees and be at full stop by the time you get to the taxiway into the CAS spawn if you do it right)

Effectiveness: Your basicly asking one person to do 2 vastly different jobs at the same time which increases the response times, reducing overall loiter times because of less available ammo for each job, increasing the downtime due to more frequent rearming and you also cant do clever tag team tactics that the CAS and AA jet can do together, like bait and kill.

 

With that said, CAS really is only useful until Ironside arrives in the AO, once the tanks roll in your job is done, same with the AA jet, unless there is a Zeus mission, your job ends when the tower gets blown and the enemy jets are down

[Fitz 1239]

Interesting discussion.

The AA and CAS jets will remain separate.

No plans to implement the aircraft carrier anytime soon either.

 

On 5/24/2017 at 9:51 AM, nclem said:

MNine one thing I've suggested a few times to fix the issue of CAS pilots who do and don't have the DLC is a little stand at the CAS hangar, usable once per AO, go up to it. Scrollwheel, and select either "DLC or Non DLC". it will then randomly pick one of the DLC jets or default jets. 

I'll be working on something similar to this shortly.

 

On 6/2/2017 at 5:18 PM, Tungsten said:

same with the AA jet, unless there is a Zeus mission, your job ends when the tower gets blown and the enemy jets are down

I'll be addressing this soon as well. Aiming to give the AA pilots more to do when up in the air.