Sniper / DMR role

[vortex1018 14]

Was very surpirsed when I logged on as sniper and found out i was limited to m320 / lynx

Not even allowed to use the cyrus, meanwhile every other rifleman carries a .338

and some machinegunner uses a SPMG with some thermal scope to snipe at 1000 metres

Need to have more clarification on Sniper / DMR / Rifleman roles

Edited June 22, 2017 by vortex1018
edit for cancerous grammar

[insanD 431]

2 hours ago, vortex1018 said:

Not even allowed to use the cyrus

The Cyrus and MAR-10s are classified as marksmen rifles, not sniper rifles.

2 hours ago, vortex1018 said:

Need to have more clarification on Sniper / DMR / Rifleman roles

What do you propose we do? In my opinion it's pretty balanced at the moment, I see no reasons to 'clarify' other roles.

[Lotza 522]

I know when I jump on IA and decide to play as a sniper, the M320 or the Lynx are my first port of call. I do often consider sticking an SMG or something small in my backpack in the case I get flanked and need to move into CQB, but I often have a sidearm or an exfil plan anyway.
At the end of the day, your role is that of a sniper, you take a high powered rifle, sit a couple kilometres out and pick off the key targets, your not there to shoot every single rifleman you see on the field. You take a Lynx 12.7mm with APDS rounds, your kitting yourself to take on light vehicles and HVT's, you take a .408, your out there for the kills on the specialists in squads or the officers.
I do agree there is no reason for a rifleman to be carrying around a .338, they should be carrying a 5.56mm or 6.5mm rifle with standard attachments, the machinegunners holding the LMG or MMG and the marksmen carrying a 7.62mm, 9.3mm or .338mm DMR or ABR.

At the end of the day, its a public server, not a realism unit. We're here to all have fun, not simulate the military, if someone feels like they'll have more fun running an SPMG with a nightstalker etc and sitting a kilometre out, so be it.

[vortex1018 14]

Looking at millitaries around the world that have a "marksman" role and their Marksman rifles, only at regular armies and excluding special forces. My understanding of Marksman or designated marksman is soldier that received specialised marksmanship training who still operates in the capacity of a squad. While this relates to my reply, I will focus mainly on the rifles, not the roles because it seems like the in I&A rifles are limited by role but not vice versa. 

US - DM: 7.62 NATO(M110)  5.56 NATO as well (SAM-R) vs Sniper: 7.62 NATO (M40, M110) .300 Win Mag (M2010) .50 BMG (M107)

AUS - DM: 7.62 NATO (SR 25, HK417) vs Sniper: 7.62 NATO (SR98) .338 Lapua (Blaser Tactical 2) .50BMG (AW50)

UK - DM: 7.62 NATO (L129, HK417) vs Sniper: 7.62 NATO (L118), .338 Lapua (L115) up to .50 BMG

Germany - DM: 7.62 NATO (MR308, G3) vs Sniper: .300 Winmag (G22).338 Lapua (RS9) .50BMG (G82)

Austria - 5.56 NATO (AUG HBAR-T) vs Sniper: 7.62 NATO (SSG 69) .338 Lapua (SSG 08)

Canada - 5.56 NATO (C7/8CT) vs Sniper : 7.62 NATO (C3A1) .338 Lapua (C14) .50BMG (C15)

France - 5.56 NATO (FAMAS G2) vs Sniper: 7/62 NATO (PGM Ultima Ratio, FRF2) .50BMG (PGM Hécate II)

Israel - 7.62 NATO (SR25, Galatz) 5.56 NATO (STAR-21) vs Sniper: 7.62 NATO (M24) .338 Lapua (Barak) .50BMG (M82)

Switzerland - 7.62NATO (Sig 550) Sniper: .338 Lapua (Sako TRG) .50BMG (PGM Hécate II)

These are just listing the countries off the top of my head, I think I'll stop here and really hope you see my point and the common theme here.

21 hours ago, insanD said:

The Cyrus and MAR-10s are classified as marksmen rifles, not sniper rifles.

Looking at the Cyrus, the real life counter parts is the SVDK, chambered for 9.3×64mm taken from http://modernfirearms.net/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/svdk-e.html. I think if you read this page you will come to the conclusion that this is not intended as a DMR. I am not sure where you take your classifications from. 

As for Noreen Bad news it's not adopted by any armed force in the world, but looking at the caliber, you would assume it would not be utilised for DM purposes

8 hours ago, Lotza said:

At the end of the day, your role is that of a sniper, you take a high powered rifle, sit a couple kilometres out and pick off the key targets, your not there to shoot every single rifleman you see on the field. You take a Lynx 12.7mm with APDS rounds, your kitting yourself to take on light vehicles and HVT's, you take a .408, your out there for the kills on the specialists in squads or the officers.

I do agree that a sniper is a role that is ISTAR specific, taking out commanders, AT, AA, JTACs. But why am I limited to .408 and 12.7mm rifles? Can I not do that with a .338 or even 7.62 rifle? I like the option to be able to have a silenced weapon. I am glad you see the issue I am raising here, but if we have rules for CAS/UAV not do deal with everything in the AO and mortars and static weapons limited to FSG, why do we not try and control who engages long range targets and who engages short range targets to make if more fun for everyone?

I won't go too much into why I think some guns shouldn't be classed as "DMRs" and why shouldn't only the M320 and the Lynx be classed a "sniper rifle", but to break it down Barney style:

1. Snipers and Designated Marksmen should not be limited to rifles and calibres, but DMR and sniper roles do overlap, as DMR is meant to fill the gap between Riflemen and snipers. 

2. A common trait of marksman rifles are that they are usually modified standard issue infantry rifles, they share ammunition already in use with other infantry rifles. 

3. DMs stick with squads, Snipers team up with spotters, but I guess that involves teamwork.... whoops

Typing this reply up and researching weapons as examples has taken up all my evening, I hope you take this into serious consideration. As currently I do not see this situation as " pretty balanced".

@BridTheAtl @InfamousNova @Rogmantosh @Brodie0296 @Matsozetex @Tracuer @Travesty @Ora209

[Nova 1779]

i know you spent a lot of time researching an all but i really don't see the issue with the sniper classes being restricted to snipers. only autorifleman can use the .338 mg's. yes everyone can use the marksmen rifles but it isnt exactly over powered since most engagements are at long range due to the open terrain. 5.56 and 6.5 arent exactly ideal for that. i think that for the time being it doesnt need to be changed unless we have a smaller map with close quarter engagements.

[vortex1018 14]

 

6 minutes ago, InfamousNova said:

I really don't see the issue with the sniper classes being restricted to snipers.

What I mean is Snipers being restricted to the Sniper rifles, instead of being able to use let's say a Cyrus when the situation demands it, not the other way around. Like I said, can I not perform in the same role with a .338 or even 7.62 rifle? Not to mention .408 and the lynx not being able to have a suppressor fitted. 

7 minutes ago, InfamousNova said:

Only autorifleman can use the .338 mg's. yes everyone can use the marksmen rifles but it isnt exactly over powered since most engagements are at long range due to the open terrain. 5.56 and 6.5 arent exactly ideal for that.

So only auto-riflemen and everyone else has access to .338s, but not snipers. When you say 5.56 and 6.5 aren't ideal for open terrain, you mean the same 5.56 and 6.5 AAF, FIA and CSAT use right? If the enemy is using the same thing what is the issue with a fair fight? Also if anything, restricting DMRs to DMs will actually better squad teamwork and force people to use tactics instead of the game that is 

8 hours ago, Lotza said:

 shoot every single rifleman you see on the field. 

with your one shot kill .338 lapua at present. Unless you decide to force stamina on people, restricting the amount of ammo that can be carried for these weapons, there needs to be some sort of change to balance the roles. 

[BroBeans 11]

I don't see your point here. if you want to use the cyrus or Mar-10 why don't you just go in the marksmen slot? .. why waste the lynx/308 slot on a rifle already accessible by other slots? 

[vortex1018 14]

6 hours ago, BroBeans said:

I don't see your point here. if you want to use the cyrus or Mar-10 why don't you just go in the marksmen slot? .. why waste the lynx/308 slot on a rifle already accessible by other slots? 

My point is that the cyrus and the Mar 10 shouldn't be classed as a DMR and that DMs and snipers are different and the roles should reflect that accordingly

8 hours ago, vortex1018 said:

break it down Barney style:

1. Snipers and Designated Marksmen should not be limited to rifles and calibres, but DMR and sniper roles do overlap, as DMR is meant to fill the gap between Riflemen and snipers. 

2. A common trait of marksman rifles are that they are usually modified standard issue infantry rifles, they share ammunition already in use with other infantry rifles. 

3. DMs stick with squads, Snipers team up with spotters, but I guess that involves teamwork.... whoops

[Nova 1779]

1 hour ago, vortex1018 said:

My point is that the cyrus and the Mar 10 shouldn't be classed as a DMR and that DMs and snipers are different and the roles should reflect that accordingly

the server isnt exactly milsim or realistic. so this level of realism really isnt needed

[Wex 429]

1 hour ago, vortex1018 said:

My point is that the cyrus and the Mar 10 shouldn't be classed as a DMR and that DMs and snipers are different and the roles should reflect that accordingly

Snipers used to have access to the cyrus and Mar 10 but that was removed due to the fact that the players in the sniper roles aren't using lynx's or m320s. Why take up a very limited spot (2 public + 1 whitelisted slot I believe) when you can use the cyrus and Mar 10 in other slots?

[Brodie0296 78]

Pretty much all i have to say about this is that while it would make more sense in a realism server this kinda isn't one, if it was things like the remote designator and darter drone would be available to marksman and sniper for recon purposes. I tend to see this server as almost a more advanced version of battlefield, people choosing what weapons they like to use but with a hint of "oh shit the role i want is taken better just make the most of it while i wait for an open slot" also usually in military's the whole marksman "DMR" role isn't a huge deal like games usually make it, pretty much its just given to the best shot in either the section or platoon, they dont really receive specialist training, the school of infantry in Australia trains rifleman to shoot accurately up to 500 meters depending on what scopes they feel like handing out.

[vortex1018 14]

9 hours ago, Wex said:

Snipers used to have access to the cyrus and Mar 10 but that was removed due to the fact that the players in the sniper roles aren't using lynx's or m320s. Why take up a very limited spot (2 public + 1 whitelisted slot I believe) when you can use the cyrus and Mar 10 in other slots?

This is exactly what Brobeans said and I have already replied to him. refer to 2 replies above yours.

[Matsozetex 89]

The limitation to only use the M320 and the Lynx serves a just purpose, only three sniper slots exist on the server (Two are public, one is whitelisted) therefore those slots must have access to these powerful weapons, however if a sniper is using a 9mm submachinegun he is not playing the sniper role and is just wasting the sniper slot. If classes became more restricted on weaponry it could work, but people will generally only play sniper for those two weapons.

If these changes were implemented 9.3mm/.338 could possibliy become a part of the sniper loadout:

1. Every Medic, AT, Engineer, Demolition, Squad Leader etc. Gets a 6.5mm, 5.56mm 5.8mm or 7.62mm rifles - 5.56 and 6.5 for med range, and a 7.62 for longer range

2. Every Grenadier gets a GL variant of the calibers mentioned above (Excluding 7.62x51mm as that is a Battle rifle caliber) - Obviously fitting in with the role of a grenadier

3. Every Marksman, Sharpshooter, Spotter gets access to 7.62mm or 9.3mm/.338 - Only access to long/medium range rifles, making the class role more defined

4. Every Sniper gets access to 12.7mm, .408, 9.3mm/.338 - Only access to top long range rifles, 

5. Every Autorifleman gets access to 5.56mm, 5.8mm 6.5mm, 7.62mm, 9.3mm or .338mm machine guns - Machine guns without stamina are powerful weapons, limit them to this class

Special weapons:

Type 115: Group 1, 2, 3

Submachine guns: Group 1

ASP-1: Groups 3, 4

SDAR: Groups 1,2,3,4,5

The problem with this is that people will whinge about it and also more scripts, but would allow for the sniper class to use the 9.3/.338 without being ruined