Removal of Jets

[decibel_spl 76]

Yes, I know I made a thread about CAS the other day, but I have to make a suggestion about this and put the idea somewhere formal. 

I've heard it said before and I'm slowly more and more started to agree with it. I believe that jets should be removed from I&A period. They serve no purpose but to make transport a pain in the ass, and cause issues a plenty with CAS power creep. What needs to happen, is completely replacing the jets with helicopters as CAS and removing the enemy jets. In replacement of enemy jets creating hazards for pilots, there needs to be more anti-air assets from the enemy - more AA batteries or more tigs/cheetahs in the AO. As quoted from SNAFU: "They don't belong in the game"

I highly doubt you will lose much removing the jets, maybe just a few salty players complaining there's no jets. I'm not asking to remove CAS, mearly just switch to helicopters instead of jets. This will promote FAR more infantry work, and coordination with ground forces which is what the server is about no?

My $0.02.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Fitz

[Rezah 93]

Yer but what seems to be the problem nothing is wrong with CAS jets bring excitement to the game if you were to have just helicopters flying back and forward then what hazard is it for pilots they sit there bored shitless what are you trying to fight for here?

[decibel_spl 76]

Note the addition to the poll, another suggestion is to remove the CAS capability from jets and make them AA only.

[noises 1]

+1

CAS adds nothing at all to I&A for the other 59 players who aren't in the CAP pilot slot, unless you count pointless deaths they can do nothing to stop. Don't get me wrong. I can easily put a Titan MPRL and half a dozen Titan AA in the back of a Hunter and go and shoot the bastard down, but between 3 to 5 minutes later, another one spawns. Personally, the reason I play an infantry focused co-op game is because I actually enjoy groundpounding with fellow arma fans, playing as a squad, communicating, filling and support the available roles in a squad and having some fun fighting. 

And it's not like the pilot has to prove themselves in any meaningful way before filling the only available fighter pilot slot, all they have to do is join TS. Yep, even the ones who don't even know how to lock a missile on. As long as they can join TS it's assumed they should have the lives of every other player on the server in their hands. Unfortunately that doesn't always work out great for everyone else trying to get a game of arma in after work.

I stopped playing on another I&A server recently because they actually increased the CAS spawn. Why? Because three of their admins brought the jets dlc! Seriously! it's like they don't een know the editor's a thing. And on that server you can't even load up and use a ground vehicle without permission from Command. Oh and they actually make you choose between AA and AT if you want to use a launcher role. So you can't even switch out launchers to deal with a ground threat while you're waiting for the next enemy jet to lock on to yet another ghosthawk. 

Invade & annex is an infantry focused game mode, that much is obvious by the number of pilot slots compared to the number of infantry ones. Sure, the choppers are good for transport, and some AA threats add risk and logistical challenges to the gameplay, which is great, but ultimately the only reason they're in the game at all is to get the groundpounders back into the AO faster. I'll gladly plus one the call to get jets out of I&A. The only people who argue against it are people who want the CAS slot to dogfight, but why should the other 59 players on a co-op server be stuck in an infinite loop of deaths to jets in choppers they're just passengers in for the sake of one bloke who could easily be dogfighting his little heart out in the editor? If Quick was still working on the mission file I'd be having this argument with him right now instead.

[decibel_spl 76]

All those who are disagreeing with jets being removed, please consider if you don't want them to be removed because you like the jets, or because you genuinely find they help this infantry based I&A server.

[Nova 1779]

24 minutes ago, decibel_spl said:

All those who are disagreeing with jets being removed, please consider if you don't want them to be removed because you like the jets, or because you genuinely find they help this infantry based I&A server.

 I&A is a combined arms game mode. dont think it says anywhere its infantry based

[Zombine45 177]

First it's the jets, next thing you know they'll be after our tanks, then the marshalls....when will it end?

[pkisbest 198]

I personally think they belong.

 

When you have a coordinating JTAC/UAV a jet can remove any armour threat to the infantry. Leaving the infantry to deal with infantry rather then trying to deal with infantry and armour.

 

And be reminded, jets are only effective on the server because there are many people who want to UAV or JTAC.

 

Ive seen some people say they play for the infantry aspect. Should we remove tanks then? Cars, hell even helos. Walk to LZ’s.

 

Its a combined Arms game. CAS is heavily restricted as is. I’ve had times where I’m just flying around shooting down Jets because there’s no one to call in CAS. Other times I’ve had too many call in’s for how much ammo i have.

 

They fill a niche. And mind you, certain helos can sit a km or two outside the AO and murder stuff without any threat (mind you the last time I saw this was about a year ago. Mechanics have changed).

 

 

Saying all this though, I would love to see some kind of implementation for light attack aircraft (Orca, Hellcat, AH9). 

Edited June 13, 2018 by pkisbest

[Mann 39]

16 hours ago, decibel_spl said:

...another suggestion is to remove the CAS capability from jets and make them AA only.

The issue then is that enemy jets don't spawn constantly so a majority of their time is wasted on waiting for an enemy jet to spawn.

 

13 hours ago, decibel_spl said:

All those who are disagreeing with jets being removed, please consider if you don't want them to be removed because you like the jets, or because you genuinely find they help this infantry based I&A server.

I'm pretty sure it isn't Infantry based

[Yeet 193]

I think its more so that if you do want to fly jets, once you get the Fighter Pilot slot it takes a couple dozen minutes to find a somewhat coherent player who can lase targets for you (let alone call the targets in side chat). With the current state of I&A, I think that its fine to have them, but I do think they need some tweaks. 

I'd much rather we have 2 jets (2 (or separate) Fighter Pilot slots to accompany them), with only 2 "variants":

One of the 2 jets would be CAS, with a Nephreon from 0-29 Transport Score,  and a Warthog for 30+.

Second of the 2 jets would have an AA loadout, with a Gryphon from 0-29 Transport Score, and a Blackwasp for 30+.

In a perfect world, I'd love for jets to be gone, and for us to get a Blackfoot (Still keeping Enemy Jets/CAS (And to counter said foe, permanent base AA controlled by UAV OP). But really, from a server's perspective I feel like this would be a stupid decision due to the now "lack" of jet play (Which some players would feel strongly against).

Don't take this as me being opposing to the idea of jets going (Quite frankly I'd love them gone) but I don't think its the only option there is. 

I don't even see the massive problem with how CAS is currently, it's already been nerfed millions of times (No longer being able to kill AA without having to get ground/UAV unit's permission, the engagement range of vehicles outside of AO being upped (I think it went from straight outside AO to 2km or so), the addition of the Fighter Pilot slot and 3 jets per restart). I think this is the best CAS/Jets have been in multiple years..

Edited June 15, 2018 by Yeet

[decibel_spl 76]

Yeet, I have to agree with you completely - out of the whole time I've been on the server this is the best I've seen jets. I'm gonna admit, this thread was a little rushed and posted out of spite due to some negative scenarios in the game and I agree now, removing jets completely is not the way to go and it's a bit too extreme. I do however firmly believe it does need changes such as having AA and CAS separate like it was and the addition of more helicopters as CAS as they are nowhere near as OP and add a very exciting side to supporting friendlies.

[Eazy 16]

On 6/14/2018 at 9:09 AM, Mann said:

I'm pretty sure it isn't Infantry based

8 hours ago, Yeet said:

No longer being able to kill AA without having to get ground/UAV unit's permission

On the contrary, surely its always been like this?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Eazy

[Yeet 193]

On 6/16/2018 at 12:51 AM, Eazy said:

On the contrary, surely its always been like this?

No, it was only added around 1 year ago that you had to have ground permission to engage AA targets.