helicopters Change to the Aircraft Roster.

[=S.N.A.F.U.= 92]

Hi gang!

Firstly, let me get this out of the way.. Get rid of the jets!. 

OK, that's out of my system. But more importantly, since the dynamics of the I&A server are changing, I thought it might be good to change a few things in the roster of choppers that spawn.

 Get rid of the VTOL's except for the Vehicle Blackfish.

With the number of people spawning, they are just unnecessary. 

Have the Taru & Huron spawn separately & have more pods (Medical, Bench & Transport)

Again due to the spawn rates, have 2x heavy lift to encourage multi-roll passenger transport/logistics.

Have the Hellcat on spawn rotation with the Little Bird.

This is more for my personal love of the Hellcat but would be good to shake it up a bit too.

Have 2-3x Ghosties spawning, With gunner AI in non-player usable Seats.

The reason for this is two-fold. Firstly the ghosties make a great cover vehicle when you are dropping guys off. Also, it stops the Tardation of people jumping in & randomly shooting all over the place. Now I know the Knee-jerk reaction "That makes them too OP!". But I often fly with the AI Gunners & I know that your threat level rises greatly in the eyes of the enemy AI & they shoot ALOT at you in return. Plus, the AI also don't often last that long before getting beheaded, or your Ghostie gets rocketed from 4 different directions. 

Thanks for reading & I'll see you 5m off the ground!

[Travesty 265]

Get rid of the jets!
Disagree, some players come for the jets. CAS rules are tight enough, removing this element of gameplay would be too OP in my opinion./

Get rid of the VTOL's except for the Vehicle Blackfish.
This makes sense for the player numbers we have these days. Though, keeping the Armed Blackfish as a reward is my suggestion.

Have the Taru & Huron spawn separately & have more pods (Medical, Bench & Transport)
I also agree with this. Replace 1 of the Ghoties with the Huron and have the Taru rotate between the variants.

Have the Hellcat on spawn rotation with the Little Bird.
Love the Hellcat and Little Bird, wouldn't hurt to trial out the rotation.

Have 2-3x Ghosties spawning, With gunner AI in non-player usable Seats.
I suggest 2 Ghosties with AI. AI gunners might promote smarter flying which isn't a bad thing.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Travesty

[DestroyerZ33 0]

Get rid of the jets

I do agree with this, the jets issue causes way too much toxicity and bullsh*t with players, as it does sort of render ironside a little inoperable against their main priority - Armoured and priority targets, especially if ironside has to travel a long distance. getting rid of the jets would make I&A more of a challenge and more fun for players. Maybe instead of jets you could have attack helicopters? or even an armed blackfish

Get rid of vtols

i agree with this. 

Taru and huron spawns

this would be advantageous to us, and would be a positive reinforcemebt for players, transport and logistics

Hellcat and Little bird rotation

Not really. i do believe they should have their own separate spawnpoints where they are not on rotation and always spawn without rotation, but i do believe that he hummingbird could maybe be on rotation with the civilian variant, for fun.

have ghost hawks spawn eith AI Gunners

oh god yes. players are too retarded with guns and uset them inappropriately all the time and are almost always unreliable and a danger to the Heli. having the gunners as ai would be beneficial and maybe make more pilots happy.

one thing to change for me

Maybe make it so it is possible to save crate loadouts? may be useful

[Bradley Rasic 6]

20 hours ago, Travesty said:

Get rid of the jets!
Disagree, some players come for the jets. CAS rules are tight enough, removing this element of gameplay would be too OP in my opinion./

Get rid of the VTOL's except for the Vehicle Blackfish.
This makes sense for the player numbers we have these days. Though, keeping the Armed Blackfish as a reward is my suggestion.

Have the Taru & Huron spawn separately & have more pods (Medical, Bench & Transport)
I also agree with this. Replace 1 of the Ghoties with the Huron and have the Taru rotate between the variants.

Have the Hellcat on spawn rotation with the Little Bird.
Love the Hellcat and Little Bird, wouldn't hurt to trial out the rotation.

Have 2-3x Ghosties spawning, With gunner AI in non-player usable Seats.
I suggest 2 Ghosties with AI. AI gunners might promote smarter flying which isn't a bad thing.

I agree with Travesty. This setup feels balanced and will change up the gameplay and freshen up the pilot job abit.

I honestly love to come and act as JTAC with the pilots and jets/CAS combined and it works very well 99% of the time. I don't see any need to remove the jets.

 

[Snohman 52]

Get rid of the jets!

Disagree, i quite enjoy being able to call in heavy support from cas or artillary and think it's definatly got it's place in a combined arms type engaugement. i would like to push for more dog-fighting with the jets though, so less missiles and more cannons. I would like to see some of the attack helicopters added to the jet rotation. with the same CAS rules, if the pilot is only dealing with dumbfire rockets and only the gunner can use the autocannon then i think it's be pretty fair.

Get rid of the VTOL's except for the Vehicle Blackfish.

yes and no. get rid of the infantry blackfish yes. I'm quite a big fan of the unarmed Y-32's because they take quite a lot of skill to fly well. i'd actually love to see the vehicle Y32 added as an unarmed transport vehicle. if i were setting the spawn, i would setup a RHIB and a quillin right next to it to reduce confusion on what it's load capacity is. again, i think adding a lightly armed one to the fighter pilot rotation might be interesting.

Have the Taru & Huron spawn separately & have more pods (Medical, Bench & Transport)
I agree with this, but just think the existing pods and huron loads could be spread out and better utilised. maybe a need to resupply side missions  and include cargo in transport points?

Have the Hellcat on spawn rotation with the Little Bird.
Have 2-3x Ghosties spawning, With gunner AI in non-player usable Seats.
i agree with both of these. but someone is going to have to add a hello kitty skin for the hellcat

 

 

 

[Matsozetex 89]

On 11/25/2018 at 7:30 PM, =S.N.A.F.U.= said:

Firstly, let me get this out of the way.. Get rid of the jets!. 

I half agree with you. CAS jets I could see being removed easily, the role that CAS jets provide can be easily replaced by helicopters with Skyfires, GBUs and ATGMs being mounted to helicopters (even the reward Kajman spawns with AGMs sometimes). However the role that AA jets cannot be easily replaced by heli's, and I personally would like to see AA jets be a permanent fixture. This would involve removing GBUs from AA, also any small diameter bombs.

 

However, I also warn, that if we do proceed with helicopter CAS, that we should at least be able to modify our pylons and if not, maybe be able to pick certain load outs at the very least (Light CAS: Rocket pods/small diameter/gun pods and Heavy CAS: GBUs/AGMs or something  similar).

[Bread 18]

On 12/12/2018 at 3:11 PM, Matsozetex said:

I half agree with you. CAS jets I could see being removed easily, the role that CAS jets provide can be easily replaced by helicopters with Skyfires, GBUs and ATGMs being mounted to helicopters (even the reward Kajman spawns with AGMs sometimes). 

 

What would be the point of removing jets if you're just going to fill the CAS role with helicopters? Doesn't really seem to fix anything by doing so...

[Matsozetex 89]

6 hours ago, Bread said:

 

What would be the point of removing jets if you're just going to fill the CAS role with helicopters? Doesn't really seem to fix anything by doing so...

Jet CAS is currently too easy, if you factor out deaths due to Arma physics AOs can be nuked with GBUs and Small Diameters (which self lock) with ease. At least with Helicopter CAS, you have to be more aware and careful with your actions.

[Noskire 123]

I have some different ideas to the above.  A secondary fixed wing aircraft, say an AC130 Gunship that was spawned after completion of side-mission(s). There seems to be a lot of players who want to gun in a Ghosthawk but it mostly turns to shiite.

The AC130 will be vulnerable to air and ground attack, so this would provide an incentive for the fighter pilot to provide support. Plus it would look frickin cool at night.

[Persona-non-Grata 37]

1 hour ago, Matsozetex said:

Jet CAS is currently too easy, ... ... At least with Helicopter CAS ... ...

 

Veritably false. Jets have far greater kill chain completion times and poorer OODA loop management.

 

Phase	Fixed Wing	Rotary
Find	Radar / EOTS / TGP / IRST Radar unreliable with detection because ARMA 3 and really good reasons. Soda straw aperture flying over a small area at high speed without any thermal imaging.	Radar / EOTS /IRST Wide FOV, gunner can simultaneously look through a thermal imager and refer to radar screen.
Fix	Painfully cycle with assigned key while trying to actually fly the jet whilst attempting to avoid possible AA fire.	Gunner selects target, pilot hovers comfortably (division of labor is fantastic isn't it).
Track	Correlating position on subsequent passes until strike authorized, an annoying matter itself w/o TrackIR and all jets notwithstanding the F/A-181 need to see the projections through a HUD not an HMD.	Target tracked, gunner may keep camera locked if necessary. Allows simultaneous multiple target monitoring and position correlation.
Engage	Hard targets necessitate lase, infantry ones are typically just terrible. Reliance on a decent UAV Operator for a reliable lase. SDB onboard targeting is iffy at best on the server because ARMA 3 and really good reasons. Pain in the arse follow up capability as major time lag is necessarily incurred when next pass needs to be initiated which requires good spacing and high energy. Paradoxically, if one wants to maintain high energy for AA avoidance this reduces the window of opportunity in terms of completing yet another (partial) kill chain. Difficult to assess prudence of danger close occurrences.	Multi - mode tracking missiles, either SACLOS or thermal imaging. Kill chain completed within helicopter without external interference or assistance. Incredible effectiveness with follow up engagements as time lag is present only due to limitations of gunner awareness and speed of weapon cycling and follow up firing. Infantry eradication easy owing to a stationary position and cannon. Easy to assess prudence of danger close occurrences.

So, rotary CAS completes kill chains faster, independently, and the division of labor means OODA loop chains are finished with higher speed, even if one acts under the assumption of an (impossibly) perfectly coordinated UAV Operator and CAS pilot. Avoidance of AA with helicopters is not a complex matter, it's simply a few klicks of standoff. Of course this comparison acts under the assumption of no enemy CAS jets as a fair test. Exclusive rotary CAS without the removal of enemy jets is a lousy prospect for obvious reasons.

Rotary CAS is a good idea, it's far more engaging, less boring, and one can have tea while waiting without having to touch the actual stick.





 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Persona-non-Grata

[decibel_spl 76]

On 12/16/2018 at 6:03 PM, Persona-non-Grata said:

 

Veritably false. Jets have far greater kill chain completion times and poorer OODA loop

Persona, you are correct in theory like most often you are, however:

Your idea is completely thrown out of the window when factoring in the human element. Fixed wing CAS are a relatively low risk high reward asset due to its high speed and ease of maintaining high altitude -  a good pilot can engage target and bug out minimizing exposure to AA missles and almost negating any automatic gun fire.

Rotor wing CAS does not have this luxury, cannot sit high in the air, and CANNOT disengage and relocate as quickly if found in a hairy situation. So yes, rotor are more effective CAS as per your table and flow chart, but for that to be put into practice, it requires more skills from the pilot and more support from ground forces as AA threats are significantly stronger when under a 500m altitude which should be the maximum operating altitude of any rotary CAS.

So in summary, in the long run unless our pilots develop the skills to be more effective rotary CAS pilots, in no way will fixed wing be less effective than rotary - supporting the idea for helicopters to replace planes as CAS

Edited December 20, 2018 by decibel_spl

[SandStorm_AU 4]

On 12/20/2018 at 1:12 PM, decibel_spl said:

Persona, you are correct in theory like most often you are, however:

Your idea is completely thrown out of the window when factoring in the human element. Fixed wing CAS are a relatively low risk high reward asset due to its high speed and ease of maintaining high altitude -  a good pilot can engage target and bug out minimizing exposure to AA missles and almost negating any automatic gun fire.

Rotor wing CAS does not have this luxury, cannot sit high in the air, and CANNOT disengage and relocate as quickly if found in a hairy situation. So yes, rotor are more effective CAS as per your table and flow chart, but for that to be put into practice, it requires more skills from the pilot and more support from ground forces as AA threats are significantly stronger when under a 500m altitude which should be the maximum operating altitude of any rotary CAS.

So in summary, in the long run unless our pilots develop the skills to be more effective rotary CAS pilots, in no way will fixed wing be less effective than rotary - supporting the idea for helicopters to replace planes as CAS

 

Sadly, whilst I'd love for us to regularly get a CAS helo (with ATGM's, not just rockets), I'm inclined to agree with Persona. A rotary CAS aircraft would, for most AO's, be entirely overpowered and would wreak destruction and chaos on the enemy....until it ran out of ammo.

ARMA does some very silly things on a very regular basis (re: physics and ordinance), but terrain masking is terrain masking. If you do it properly and you do it often, a CAS gunship helicopter would be able to pop-up, acquire, pop-down and then lift again to launch. With Fire-and-Forget missiles, the helo's are extremely survivable.... just don't let the enemy AAA have the chance to lock you.

 

Regards,

SandStorm.au

Edited December 21, 2018 by SandStorm_AU

[BigRed 133]

To round the whole thing out, almost everything in ARMA is a little off when it comes to aviation combat. Personas talk of OODA loop cycles, sounds all well and good in classroom at 2FTS, but in reality it's broken in ARMA as fixed wing combat, including all of the AA threats, happens over 1/20th of the actual realistic distances, the threats as a whole don't relfext their real world counterparts and so forth. Even in rotary combat there are unrealistic aspects. For example, if there was any form of SPADS such as a Tunguska (or Tig in this case), NO ONE GOES IN. Artillery solves that problem, or infantry.

The point of my post if to shy people away from trying to win arguments here with fancy real word aviation combat theory, when it needs to be solved on the level that brings in players to the server because they're having a good time. It's not about us having fun with out favourite helo/plane, it's about whats best for the server.

[=S.N.A.F.U.= 92]

I agree with Red. Unfortunately, the jets are just not made to fit on a map this size. 

This is a scenario that happens on some other servers. Tanks, Friendly AA & a support leave base. 2-3 choppers head out with troops & drop them behind a hill, or at a respectable distance as to not be shredded by AA. The troops head in with the AA being a high priority. The choppers either have door gunners or are escorted by a  gunship (rockets & cannon) in case there are some random AI in the chosen LZ.

From here the attack methods become divergent, depending on the armours' travel time. Either the troops take out the AA to open up the skies for closer CAS support & logistics, Or the armour rolls in & takes out the AA & proceeds to take out the vehicles in the AO as well.

YES, it takes a lot of coordination. YES, a lot of the pubbies on the server are "special". YES, it's difficult to set up. YES the 3 poor SOB's that only fly jets miss out. BUT! It's mad fun & a server can be trained to act as if this is normal. You just have to make it normal, just as we have with our current ruleset.

NOW.. Not to put a dampener on this topic, I mainly started this post for a look into a change in chopper rotation. The Jet comment was a throw away because everyone knows I don't like them  .

One thing I'd love to add to the changing roster that I only really remembered this morning was to have the small ammo crates loaded with standard NATO ammo & FAC's rather than random crap that we don't use in the field. This would make it better to be able to do logistics runs for the guys. Maybe even in the future to get rid of bergans or, heaven forbid, add in stamina! Again creating a need for the symbiosis of pilots & ground ponders. Even on low pop times, they can be lifted by anyone in the little bird.

Anyway,

Merry Whatever you believe in. And I really thank you all for you're input here. It means a lot to the future of a good server to debate these things. We may not always agree (hey, you are allowed to be wrong,  ) , but I love seeing you all being civil &  stating your cases.

Peace

=S.N.A.F.U.=

CEO 50-50 Chance Flights

Edited December 24, 2018 by =S.N.A.F.U.=